A discussion on the use of drugs to alter state
This is a random series of conversations which occurred after seeing video on the power of DMT– a naturally occurring psychotropic chemical produced by the pineal.
Good story (the video) and information, and I believe carries into our own conversation, Beatrice, of the nature of all the realms and the beings that exist in each. DMT appears to bring us into contact with the beings of that realm, which are similar and yet totally different than our own, but that also want to co exist and experience our humanness; that's where the problem lies. These forces may teach the materialist a lesson or two, give the person a vertical lift of consciousness from material to vegetal or consciousness of 'a' field, but these forces can also enter and possess our consciousness. This is where the danger can lie. Other realms can also teach us, and they have their own portals which are not drugs, and again can inspire, teach, and again, unfortunately, live vicariously through us. This is where the old prophetic 'good and evil' paradigm sits: the understanding that there are many different forces, and these forces want to experience a different state, and the human body offers this; as we live in the physical world which is an entirely different space for these forces that then take 'being' in us. They are not then contingent beings but being human as the then live as us. They ‘become', ontologically, and we then have brought them into existence but in doing so, are held at their level of being. His talk gave me the further recognition of the value and validity to my own understanding. We look from two views. I think I was one of those 2% but had to kick start it (the ability to feel and see that which is normally not seen)–until it became my natural state, although if honest, I damp it down most of the time. We have been teaching and introducing a natural way to open up consciousness with all the portals of our being; the five realms: four in us, one above and beyond. These can be developed, and the intelligences at each level can inform us, through our humanity. It's been a very exciting process, and also very frustrating as it takes time, courage, patience, persistence, encouragement and silence through directed surrender, not open surrender.
“The latihan (of Subud) itself can be dangerous to individuals who are in a psychotic state. Every “practice” needs to be respected for what it is, especially in relation to the individual wanting to engage in/with it. Hence my caveats about trying DMT in previous threads. In the bible, I believe in genesis, you will find references to “the land of milk and honey”, which when decoded by astrotheology, you will discover this “hidden” meaning as relating to the pineal and the pituitary glands. One cannot ignore the spiritual significance attributed to these parts of our body and the portals that they seem to represent.”
Yes, I began to watch this the other day, but was rather turned off, not necessarily in the content, but by the chap himself. I like to see mastery by those who speak, and didn't see it. Much of our current 'masters' or 'teachers' speak from learnt understanding but not necessarily, as yet, embedded, and I'm being a little choosy where I spend my time. I may revisit when I have the ‘time’.
I agree, BTW, with what you said above with the latihan. Having come across rather too many psychotic people playing out their altered and bewildered state–hence the caveat don't 'open' people who are unstable (what ever that may mean!). Yes, I have often come across the phrase 'land of milk and honey' and honestly haven't attributed it to the milking of our pineal. Perhaps it infers the milking of the pineal gland by the rhythmical expansion and contraction of the dural envelope, and the pull and relaxation of the straight sinus immediately behind the pineal 'space', every 3 seconds in a 'healthy' person.
In reality most people do not conform to this rhythm but, as they are influenced by the other (lower) life forces, their cranial rhythm is altered in disturbed or almost non existent, or indeed, wildly disturbed rhythms-which may go a long way to give a plausible explanation why their DMT production is not as it should!
The honey may be the hormonal mix that is the endocrine secretion of the gland itself! Yes, the portals are there, and many others which we have discovered, experienced but don't articulate.
“Phew .. demon is a deamon, it may infer the shadow aspect of ourselves, a lower self. I'm not demonizing it at all, just giving a hard won perspective. If you feel I am, then that may simply your take. I am only giving, I hope, wise counsel, and understanding taken from many many patients who have been in clinical distress, and my own direct experience which was considerable in the sixties. I cannot ignore what I have witnessed. I included the dreaming because it is also a legitimate and powerful mode to utilize natural DMT! Synthesis of which, may infer that it has a material base (laboratory developed)–the drug becomes lesser as it doesn't carry its own nature–it becomes an analogue–bioidentical. It may be that DMT is the product of the plant and merely brought into pill form–is that it; in that case I stand corrected. To that I may be wrong; that may be a misunderstanding on my part.
Forty years on, I have my own understanding and cosmology based on my own inner experiences and the exegesis of all the sources that Bapak (un)consciously took via Naqshbandi Sufi teaching-way back to Advaita, Neoplatonism, St Augustine, Issac Luria, Ibn al Farabi, Sina, Ghazzali, Schumacher, St Thomas, St Teresa, Heideggar, Wilber etc.,–as it's part of the work we developed and teach here in Moscow. If you feel that I am at fault, thank you for the courtesy of taking your reply off the thread; but all too often that stops the thread from morphing into further areas to be explored!! I do not belong to a group, like you. We are on our own, but the latihan is absolutely part of our life, as is prayer, as is all the extras around a good life, and we do our best. Before you demonize a reply because it points particular finger at an object of curiosity, in this case, perhaps you can step back and wonder why the objection to a particular unfolding of a 'reality'? Is it that my comments may negate a whole collective consensus of the use of active substances, in large numbers of people around the world? Is it that I am just a old fuddy duddy? (which may of course be the case!) Is it because the reply seems fundamental–which by your tone and rhetoric about dogma would appear so. I prescribe to the experiential and 'try it first before your speak' brigade–a capacity I didn't have when younger! That's what has happened throughout my life, either through direct inner experience–usually after the trying(!)–or imply been given the interior understanding as I live my life. I try not to pontificate (now) if I haven't experienced something. If I do get on my high horse forgive me. BTW I do like your posts.
“the pineal gland a creature of the night, connecting us to our psychic self, sacred sites and geomagnetic fields....what more could you wish for in a talk show?”
“wonder if there isn't a connection between these two streams of thought, the DMT and the sleep. I do recall a relationship between the DMT and sleep, but could it be that there is also a cleansing process that includes some of these higher order monamines as artifacts, at least, of the process?”
I wrote a piece on the InnerDialogue FB page the other day. Yes, vindicated at last, although we didn't know that the size of the packing cells diminished at night. I guess if night time is 'yin' then contraction and diminution is the reality, but as volume not mass (have I got that right?) yet boundaries are maintained–space stays between cells.
Trying to think through, our journey through the ventricles and subarachnoid space of my own CNS at night–I used to do it regularly post airline trips, but here in Moscow I rarely do it–is hard; as our sleep pattern here is very corrupted. I think all the EMF's wafting past our building, but also our age (?), as well as too little exercise are contributing factors. I should do it nightly as no one else holds my head, until my sleep becomes re organized.
A further reply from different source:
“Hi Solihin and all Cognitive-study/Educ-psych folks nowadays have their own take on this: that the brain somehow "cleans house"(this is a speculative, empirical, allegorical model from them) when you sleep and if you don't want to run the risk of losing what you just learned–if you want that information to go from "temporary storage" to "long-term storage”–you need to engage with it more than once after you've learned it before you go to sleep . So it turns out that's why it matters to "do your homework on the day it's assigned". I didn't know this formally until late in my teaching career, sadly, or I would have given my students better advice earlier. It's as if the info you've taken in during the day is sitting in big plastic trash bags and unless you do something that puts a post-it note on the bag saying "save this" it might get taken out to the curb when you sleep. I do a lot of tutoring now–chem and physics–usually smart kids who've hit the first bump in the road in their school career. They're afraid, their parents are trying not to panic (both of which work against them), but the upside is that they will really listen to advice kindly given. And the advice I give is that the kid–no matter how tired–should look at the work we've done at least once before bed–even if that means just letting their eyes fall on the pages we've generated. I also suggest they go for a walk or take a shower first, and I've taught Cook's Hook-up to a whole bunch of kids and their parents–also the green-break thing. On the same topic: some older-vintage thinking on this subject (since 50 yr ago) was that "33 meaningful repetitions" made a piece of information yours forever, i.e. moves something from long-term to permanent storage, or maybe anchors it permanently–it would be very interesting to know if these models have a basis in anatomical or physiological reality. Any thoughts?
“I have been having an interesting time with a young man who posted on FB about DMT. Lots of people have responded; and I thought I would include what I have been saying too. Again this is for conversation; I haven't got it 'right' I'm sure, but these are based on observation and inner experience and understanding over the last forty or so years. Again this is to stimulate answers, thoughts, questions in our field and in our ability to answer cogently in an ontological manner.
A material substances keep us at the material level–man made chemistry, synthesis of; these are inorganic compounds, such as synthesized DMT. Organic compounds keep us in the vegetal state; marijuana, opium, (natural) DMT, ayahuasca etc., 'Power', magic, and spells keep us in the animal self. Human thoughts keep us in the human realm, and noble thoughts bring us out into the unexpected. No level, realm, niche or nature can ontologically bring us to another level, it is impossible. There has to be a bridge. The bridge which may, paradoxically, be a drug or illness, spell or belief may act as the precursor, and the epigenesis for a vertical shift. But the element itself cannot move us upward from its own state to another. The ontological paradigm is that there is a essential spiritual essence / quality which acts to move us from where we are to the next level. Surrender is the most potent. However if you are at the material level of being: human-material; a chip off the old block, genetically locked to history and what was, then you have to use something 'higher' to change state. DMT will not do it as it is human made, and chemical, and thus material in its own nature even though its intent and force which it has been made in is 'human' or 'inspired' (noble). That means that synthesized DMT is material-human in its nature. It is material–its inorganic make-up, it is of course very psychoactive, so has an animal component (power), has been created by humans, so has a human quality and was made to shift people's state (I hope). Therefore has an inspired (noble) aspect. The natural substance is vegetal–its nature, is psychoactive (chemicals that affect us), so it has an animal component (power) and carries no human input nor necessarily noble elements. It induces intense psychedelic states. Because it is natural, it acts in the level of its origin–it cannot catalyze a process beyond (higher) than its own nature; so cannot take you to your human-animal nature. However it CAN lift you from your human-material nature. The best medicine is 'fatihah' or its equivalent, and surrender!!!
Followed by a reply:
"I think there is an assumption that we as humans are able to recognise a true state of surrender. This assumption is in and of itself potentially egotistic if not careful. It is the belief that we can or should because of the latihan or religious experience. I hear clear echoes of Bapak's words, and although I think I understand those words, I also would not want to create limitation to life experience. As to the particulars: DMT is already in our body, and, are we not what we eat, to a point? Should we stop eating? stop ingesting all organic matter? all food is "psychoactive" and I guess one could hallucinate from excess coffee. Were do you draw the line?....but thanks for your reply here and i will read all of the above again."
and again from the original questioner:
"and DMT comes from the pineal gland which many say is dulled by fluoride and other chemicals. so maybe 200 years ago man was a more fully conscious being. At least had greater potential within. Just speculating! DMT is nothing like DMT (?) and does no harm to the brain unlike LSD."
and then I replied:
Good reply .....
I'm not an acolyte first of all. These are my words and inner experience, and yes you are right in that all of us should not take advice but to experience things for themselves; I'm a child of the sixties and had the opportunity to do so, to a very excessive degree, and, during that extraordinary time, also had some very potent experiences that gave me another view and understanding. Yes we have natural DMT in our body, and that we can train ourselves to utilize its very properties to conjure up our own imagination, sleep and lucid or cognitive dreaming allows us to do that. Actually I'm not sure if all food is psychoactive in the way I meant it, was inferring that DMT has a very potent affect on our physiology whereas bananas don't! I guess I'm too engrained in my own understanding, and refer to the ontologically sound premise that what is before can only support what is above but not create it. However what is above can utilize that what is below because it is now incorporated into its matrix. Tantra was considered a high art, as human life forces were able to be carried and merged, and it was that surrender that opened the gates to a union that is ontologically higher than sex because it is the human that makes the choice to open to a higher consciousness. The ingestion of a substance to elicit a change of state acts as a catalyst to open the door, but its nature doesn't know what door to open, so any door can be opened; usually, and this may be difficult to comprehend, the door looks like its noble or to the spiritual realm, but it’s a door of the mind, or the door to instincts and power, a door to fields or feelings or a door to the underworld and resonance. Benjamin asked should he take it ... He needs to at least know why he's thinking about ingesting a door opener and what gets opened.
"Thank you Solihin. Ontology certainly is not my subject, therefore I can neither agree nor disagree regarding it being a sound premise or not. However, as a concept, it makes me think of the inherent linguistic constraints when trying to debate the very existence of god. Interesting though. As indeed tantra is regarded as a kind of portal to higher consciousness, so is DMT. And as we can follow the flow of energy through tantric union, and be aware of the path, I believe that there is not much confusion with what door is potentially opened when experiencing DMT itself. There has been a vast amount of research as well as anecdotal evidence in the populations where ayahuasca is part of daily life. The most notable comment made by the above indigenous peoples is that “we” have lost our spiritual connection with the planet. I believe they can guide us to a “higher”, more noble way of life. Discrimination against certain life forms, be it DMT or marijuana, while allowing tobacco and alcohol to be part of our everyday life, is a confirmation of how “we” are all ultimately detached from spiritual life. I am sure most of us enjoy a glass of wine at least a few times a year. Responsible, intelligent human beings who have experienced DMT have done so in controlled situations and very few times. DMT is not addictive. We only use 10% of our brain, so who is to say that the 90% does not “house” our higher self. I believe that it may just be that barrier, “door” if you will, itself, keeping us from the 90%, that DMT breaks through. So, simply put, it is a door to the extension of our inner selves. So, in conclusion, my answer to .... is: yes, go ahead but only when you have all the information before you to make an informed choice, and of course, do it under the correct conditions. And afterwards, please share your experience with the rest of us!"
and then me again:
Thank you ......; great answer. I am not really saying don't take it, as an absolute, but know what you are doing as you rightfully say. I guess I was too dogmatic with my categorical 'no'. My life work has been to help facilitate humans who are not yet themselves. In this process I developed a body of work called InnerDialogue, and with which I worked with thousands and thousands of people, and also taught hundreds. One of the factoids, we found time and time again, is that for many people, who are ill, chronically or acute, their pathological, psychological or pathophysiological state, is, at the root, that they became possessed by the beings that reside within the plant or chemical or similar. The accident, in the ontological sense, is that they have allowed into their home (body) the being that they have taken. I have first hand experience of doing, many years ago now, and very very occasionally over the past few years, exorcisms or acupuncture techniques, or prayer sessions, and all under the protection of the latihan, to order, ask, facilitate ( dependent on its nature) the force to leave their new abode–their host. So in many cases I saw, tasted and fully experienced the beings that took opportunity to take a ride with their host. These forces are NOT human, but part of the grand scheme. But they have their place, and it's not IN the body of their host. So there are always caveats on the things we do. In ritual perhaps, we can be clean and pure and not be in a state of addiction / need / emptiness in our feelings which allows other things to fill space. The real cure for those who we had to help say goodbye to those forces occupying their space, is of course, to help them fill that which is empty of themselves–their essence and/or inner feeling. ..... thanks for the conversation, and ….. thanks for the question!
"Solihin, please stop demonizing DMT. DMT is no more of a drug than oestrogen. And how many women take HRT? Actually, most hormone replacement drugs are synthetic and the cause of breast cancer, etc. Far more dangerous than DMT! If only women could top up with real oestrogen, the outcome would probably be quite different. Humans are naturally curious beings and I respect any person wishing to increase their range of experiences. The fear inducing rhetoric is just too much to bear here. I was not going to post in this thread again, but the amount of subud related dogma has only served to reinforce why I prefer to keep being “opened” and appreciate the gift of the latihan, but without “belonging” to any subud group as such. I guess I should thank you all for helping me confirm what I have known for a long while now."
and me again:
It is a drug, very psychoactive or very potent in its power. Yes we produce it naturally, and it's the stuff of dreams. Practice to switch on your dream life: it goes like this–your machine called the brain is material like a computer and is hard wired for spiritual understanding, not experience. When in an open, mindful, receptive waiting, expectant and surrendered state it acts to be an ally, otherwise it's just masters you. The Prophet Mohammed pbuh would ask his companions every morning what they dreamt, recognizing that in our down time we clean out, reformat, pull up old files, note our stereotypes, and receive new information, and new archetypes become revealed. You can switch on remembrance (Dhikr) by dreaming: At the material level of your hardware: you don't remember dreaming, at the vegetal level you know you dreamed, you have a taste of them, but cannot remember with clarity, but it leaves you feeling OK. This is your program that flushes, cleans, re-formats, removes old languages, files etc. At the animal level you start to remember your dreams and they are often colorful, active, adventurous, may involve sex, danger, fighting etc. these often tell you about stereotypical patterns you possess. At the human level the dreams are much more lucid, and usually are archetypal–you often remember much of it, it's clear and gives you knowledge of yourself. It may prescient too. At the Noble level, and I would not hesitate to say that these are rare, are dreams that imprint themselves into you. They are spiritual in nature, and often involve a spiritual figure who speaks to you or is present. These are the jewels of the inner world. As you may know Mendeleev, Einstein and many many more all got there ah ha's through sleep, when they were illuminated. However spiritual enlightenment doesn't come to the unprepared. All of us have to prepare ourselves with a waking inner life, so that illumination occurs and sits on a (material) machine (your brain) which has the software to understand. An empty machine may be programmed but you have to fill it with life experiences. Keep playing music Benjamin and allow God to breath through you and into your sounds. That's the spiritual life–so that your music touches the soul of others and carries the Great Life with every breath. Have patience–an human-animal quality ... The patience to wait. It goes like this for at the human-material level there is trust (the contact is made), at the human-vegetal level is faith (the experience is being made through life, the explicate teaches you about the underlying Implicate (Allah, God etc), and then there is patience (wait) for illumination Light ( al-Nur) and then we find the next level of inner growth which is humbleness (surrender and the bending of your head in acknowledgement of the greater Mind) and then ultimately submission; which is the nature of the Noble Human–to follow the Greater Will in complete obedience where the Implicate guides your unfolding in the Explicate Reality (after David Bohm).